{"id":885,"date":"2024-05-30T08:40:48","date_gmt":"2024-05-30T15:40:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/live-metropolitan-abundance-project.pantheonsite.io\/?post_type=podcast&#038;p=885"},"modified":"2024-12-02T06:10:10","modified_gmt":"2024-12-02T14:10:10","slug":"epidsode-21","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/www.metroabundance.org\/podcasts\/epidsode-21\/","title":{"rendered":"Anthony Gill on Spokane"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe title=\"Spotify Embed: #21 - Anthony Gill on Spokane\" style=\"border-radius: 12px\" width=\"624\" height=\"351\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/7tiaqlXpRo3Qxfh5HVQF8G\/video?si=y5rhWthiSIi_vStdFdpfOw&#038;utm_source=oembed\"><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Welcome back to the Abundance Podcast!<\/strong>&nbsp;In this episode,<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/mnolangray\">&nbsp;\u2060M. Nolan Gray\u2060<\/a>&nbsp;chats with<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/spokanerising\">&nbsp;\u2060Anthony Gill\u2060<\/a>. Anthony is an economic development professional and the write of<a href=\"https:\/\/spokanerising.substack.com\/\">&nbsp;\u2060Spokane Rising\u2060<\/a>, an urbanist blog focused on ways make Spokane a better place to live. They\u2019re joined in this episode by Robyn Leslie, the director for strategic partnerships at California YIMBY.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Stay connected with the<a href=\"https:\/\/www.metroabundance.org\/\">&nbsp;\u2060Metropolitan Abundance Project\u2060<\/a>&nbsp;on<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/metroabundance\">&nbsp;\u2060Twitter\u2060<\/a>,<a href=\"https:\/\/bsky.app\/profile\/metroabundance.bsky.social\">&nbsp;\u2060Bluesky\u2060<\/a>, and<a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/metroabundance\/\">&nbsp;\u2060Instagram\u2060<\/a>.Stay connected with&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/cayimby.org\/\">\u2060\u2060California YIMBY\u2060\u2060<\/a>&nbsp;on&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/cayimby\">\u2060\u2060Twitter\u2060\u2060<\/a>,&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/bsky.app\/profile\/cayimby.bsky.social\">\u2060\u2060Bluesky\u2060\u2060<\/a>,&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/cayimby\/?hl=en\">\u2060\u2060Instagram\u2060\u2060<\/a>, and&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.tiktok.com\/@cayimby\">\u2060\u2060TikTok\u2060\u2060<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n<div class=\"transcript\">\n\t<div class=\"title\">Episode Transcript<\/div>\n\t\t<div class=\"rows\">\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>So let\u2019s talk about Spokane. I think a lot of folks heard about some of the exciting stuff that happened in Spokane late last year. We\u2019re recording this in early 2024. But I\u2019ve actually never been to Spokane. Robyn, have you been? You\u2019re from Seattle.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yes, I have been. I\u2019ve not spent quality time, but have been.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I say you\u2019re from Seattle as if these aren\u2019t on the opposite end of a giant state that would cover three states on the East Coast, but in any case.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Some people might take it a certain way to cast that aspersion. I\u2019m from Seattle. I do not claim. I claim no Spokane.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Whenever I tell people I\u2019m from Kentucky, they\u2019re always like, \u201cOh, I know somebody from Kentucky, but you probably don\u2019t know them. It\u2019s a big state.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cTry me, because it actually is a really small state in a certain sense.\u201d In any case, Anthony, why don\u2019t you tell us a little bit about Spokane? Why is it interesting and maybe some characteristics of the city that might make it clear what other peer cities might be?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, definitely. Spokane is a city on the border with Northern Idaho, so not the Seattle area, but the complete opposite side of the state in eastern Washington. About 250,000 people in the city, and about 400,000 in the county. And the metro area, I would say kind of connects over into Northern Idaho, so there\u2019s a lot of cross-state connections. A lot of people go back and forth for jobs or housing and whatnot. The whole area in its entirety is probably about 600,000 people, so kind of a mid-sized city. Grew up around the railroad, forestry, and mining in the late 1800s, early 1900s. Has a significant transit history, transit, and rail history as a rail hub, but really just a really beautiful town. River running through it, really strong pre-war grid, really good bones of a city, which is one of the things that I love about it personally is just the character. The feeling of the place, it feels like maybe Seattle 20, 30 years ago, Portland 20, 30 years ago. Really strong Pacific Northwest city.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, no, I was noticing that when I was looking on Google Maps. I mean, just the incredible grid and a lot of small blocks with alleys bisecting them. I always say that the hardest thing to fix with cities is the street grid. And so these cities that are starting from a place with a great grid are really in a good position, right?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Absolutely. And the majority of the city, I would say probably 60, 70% of it has that really strong pre-war grid. So it\u2019s only once you get out toward the fringe that it starts to spread out a little bit more.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I know there\u2019s been a huge amount of growth in probably somewhat kind of sort of nearby cities. Boise has had some of the most rapid growth. Again, not in any normal American sense of closeness, but in the same general region. There\u2019s been a lot of movement away from really high cost coastal cities like Seattle and Portland into this region. What\u2019s been going on with Spokane on that front?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I would say I\u2019d separate it into two periods. So I think before maybe the, I don\u2019t know, 2018, 2019 period, I think Spokane was probably on a different trajectory from say Boise or some of those still slightly larger cities that have maybe a stronger university base, a stronger tech sector. Boise has a lot of tech jobs. Spokane doesn\u2019t, so maybe it was on a little bit of a different trajectory, a little bit more stagnant, slower growth.<\/p>\n<p>And then really what happened is the pandemic hit, and of course, people moving away from these high cost cities, having the freedom to be able to go wherever and work wherever really supercharged growth in rents and housing costs. We had a period of 2020 into 2022 \u2014 really, I mean everywhere had that, but Spokane was probably supercharged with people moving away from Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco. Sometimes with legitimate family connections in Spokane, it\u2019s not like they were moving away for no reason, but moving into the Spokane area and driving up housing costs. I don\u2019t have the stats super handy, but I would say very significant growth. From my perspective, I was looking for a condo actually in Spokane early in the pandemic, about 2020. I was looking at condos that were kind of in the 250, 270 range, and this would get you a good two-bedroom, two-bath condo, and the same condo today is probably going for 450, 500. That\u2019s now, after the peak of housing costs. So it\u2019s been a big run-up in prices and costs for people.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, I think Robyn and I hearing 200, 250 for a condo from where we are in S.F. and L.A. is painful. 450, 500-<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Just crying over here. It\u2019s fine. That\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I\u2019m still yelling at myself for not buying then.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Many such cases. Part of the reason why we\u2019re talking about Spokane with you is it seems like, like many cities across the country, there\u2019s been an incredible run-up in home prices. But not every city has, I think, responded with zoning reform commensurate to the scale of the problem. Spokane seems like an interesting exception, so maybe let\u2019s just walk through it. What was the situation going into some of these reforms? Fairly typical zoning permitting rules? What were the big hurdles as far as you could tell?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, definitely. Spokane had done a couple of things kind of nibbling around the edges is how I would describe it. So, had done a little bit of work around making ADUs a little bit easier to build, but nothing maybe on the scale of some of this, even the state-level legislation that we\u2019ve seen in some states. Had done a little bit of work to try to look at the codes to figure out what is driving people not choosing to build these Accessory Dwelling Units or the cottage housing was a really big popular talking point and had done a little bit of that work.<\/p>\n<p>But in general, 70% of the city was zoned for single-family homes. Our comprehensive plan, which is in Washington State, our prime governing document in planning, was oriented around these single-family homes and concentrating growth along major commercial corridors and major commercial centers. So we called it our Centers and Corridors Plan. I think there has been a lot of effort around trying to figure out ways to concentrate growth there and not a lot of focus on how we enable more housing in the rest of the city. That was kind of what we were coming in with, was this comprehensive plan that probably was rooted really in the 90s, early 2000s. It had some principles of smart growth but maybe wasn\u2019t at the bleeding edge, and certainly wasn\u2019t at the bleeding edge that we see today.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I\u2019m kind of curious about this bleeding edge you\u2019re talking about. One of the things that Nolan and I, when you have conversations about massing standards, height, setbacks, all these things, what are you allowed to build on a parcel? So I guess, what\u2019s your kind of dream thing that gets built as a result of all these changes? I\u2019m curious if you can take us through some of what you\u2019d like to see happen in Spokane.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, so in Spokane, I think some of the things that are now legal as a result of the changes that we made starting in 2022, and then making the permanent in 2023, you can now build an eightplex on a single family lot, which is just incredible. I talk to friends in Seattle and they start yelling at me, that that is the case.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Seattle\u2019s not a big city like Spokane. I don\u2019t know if they can handle that-<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Exactly. I think one of the things that was most significant about the reforms that we made is that we kept it very simple. I think our planning director and our city council did a really good job of reducing the level of complexity in the zoning code. We no longer have duplicate regulations of things like FAR setbacks, and height limits. It\u2019s just very simple. You have some fairly reasonable setbacks, you have a minimum lot size, and you have a height limit, and it\u2019s basically that. So for me, what I\u2019m really excited about is the potential for, I think sixplexes, eightplexes, who knows how many eightplexes we\u2019ll see, I don\u2019t know, but certainly sixplexes.<\/p>\n<p>We have developers already taking advantage of these rules. I go into the permitting system every couple of weeks just to kind of take a peek and see if anything new has dropped in, and they\u2019re taking advantage. And especially of the interlocking pieces of these reforms that almost \u2014 they multiply the level of actual density that this allows. I say eightplexes on a single-family lot. Well, if you have a big single-family lot, two eightplex buildings? Not crazy to think about. So yeah, it\u2019s very significant.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Let\u2019s chunk it out and figure out how we got here. One of the first big reforms was eliminating parking requirements within a half mile of transit. Right?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>The first big action that we took was in 2022 when the city council adopted interim rules. Washington State has a system where you can put in place interim zoning rules for up to six months, and then the city council can extend it. That allowed up to fourplexes. So the original was up to fourplexes, and the intent there was really to just go ahead and do it. Let\u2019s try it. Let\u2019s see what happens. And during that time, they worked on the permanent new rules that now allow eightplexes. In the middle of that time, we also went ahead and made parking optional within a half mile of transit. So we\u2019ve had several different reforms that have kind of taken place and they all start to blur together, even for me.<\/p>\n<p>I think the way that we passed our missing middle legislation was pretty unique because we decided to do it through an emergency ordinance, which meant that we didn\u2019t need to do all of the front-ended community engagement work. All of the SEPA and NEPA analysis, all of the processes took place after the legislation was already in place, which meant that we didn\u2019t necessarily have all of these big community meetings where people come out and say, \u201cOh god, this is going to cause disaster,\u201d because people recognized, oh, these rules are already in place. It kind of obviates the actual opposition.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>What was the political landscape like, such that you could do something like that? I mean, in many places that would seem pretty radical.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I think there\u2019s a couple things. Our city council was very unique at the time. It still is very unique, but it was unique at the time. In Spokane, we have a strong mayor, and the way many people describe it, a strong council form of government. So our council does take significant policy moves that you might not see in other strong mayor cities. At the time was split 5-2 between progressives and conservatives. And the conservatives are legitimate conservatives, they\u2019re Republicans. But at the same time, those conservatives are, I think, different from what you see in some other cities. One of them was the former lobbyist for our Home Builders Association. One of them is a conservative who is just generally much more libertarian-minded, so I think that results in maybe him being more open to these types of reforms than one might expect.<\/p>\n<p>Only one of our progressive city council members was someone I would describe as maybe coming up through neighborhood councils and community neighborhood boards, that type of system. The rest of them were much more rooted in labor, housing justice groups, and straight activism. I think our council itself was a little bit unique at the time in that we had the opportunity for people to come together where they might not ordinarily. The other piece of the puzzle is that I think our council in general and our community because we\u2019re located so close to Northern Idaho, because we\u2019re located in a region, we\u2019re kind of a blue dot in a sea of red is how I describe it, people are comfortable having strange bedfellows; People are comfortable agreeing with people on one thing, even if they vehemently disagree with maybe their positions on social issues or their position on other urban issues, even in some cases. I think that by necessity, people have to come together in a place like Spokane where they might not have to in a place like Seattle or San Francisco or Los Angeles, just from a political necessity perspective.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>In terms of the interest groups pushing one way or another, what was that landscape like?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Frankly, I don\u2019t think we actually had any organized opposition, which is pretty unique. Some people were potentially opposed to missing middle reforms, but there was no organized opposition. The people who came together in support were a really broad coalition. So most significantly, we have the home builders on board. Historically, the home builders in Spokane have been supportive of more conservative city council candidates, have been more\u2026 Just in general, they build sprawl developments, so they\u2019re not necessarily the types of developers that would actually be taking advantage of these rules, in many cases. Or if they are taking advantage of them, they\u2019re taking advantage of them in places where some activists maybe wouldn\u2019t want them to take advantage of these rules, more toward the urban fringe.<\/p>\n<p>We had a very strong contingent of low-income housing developers. Habitat for Humanity is very strong in Spokane, so Habitat is a good example of a strong supporter. And then Spokane also has a very significant homelessness crisis, like many West Coast cities right now. So a lot of the homeless services and homelessness advocates were actually involved in the push for these new regulations because of the potential benefit in terms of long-term affordable housing, creating a better long-term picture for housing costs. So I think there is a pretty broad mix of supporters. And then you had, of course, all of the typical people. I was out there on Twitter pushing people to go to city council meetings and getting people to send letters. I would describe myself as kind of a typical urbanist advocate. But in general, I think one of the biggest things is we did not have organized opposition in any real way that we might\u2019ve had if we had taken a more traditional approach to passing the legislation.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I\u2019m curious if that sprung up after having passed this.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I would say we might be getting, certainly not organized opposition, but right now we might be seeing some of the first wave of questions in the community, would be how I would describe it. Developers are actually getting permits for fourplexes and sixplexes in single-family neighborhoods. And you are seeing more posts on Nextdoor, and more posts on Reddit about it.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I bet. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>And the posts are all, I\u2019m really happy this was happening near me. This is great. Right?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>More neighbors. Yay.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Certainly not on Nextdoor. On Reddit? Yes, actually, which is good. But certainly not on Nextdoor.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Has there been a divide in the reaction from different neighborhoods? I\u2019m curious. I\u2019m thinking, correct me if I\u2019m wrong, but some southern neighborhoods of Spokane are more well off, and then there\u2019s the north and the east. And so I\u2019m curious if it\u2019s been geographically located by wealthier single-family homeowner neighborhoods or not. We see that sometimes, and I\u2019m curious about that breakdown along similar lines.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Certainly, the opposition I\u2019ve seen on Nextdoor is coming more from residents on the South Hill and those are\u2026 Yes, it\u2019s more you have some historic neighborhoods, \u201chistoric neighborhoods\u201d down there, and more well-off, more affluent, and probably disproportionately whiter, although Spokane in general is fairly white. But with that said, one of the interesting things is that there were a lot of people before\u2026 I shouldn\u2019t say a lot of people. There were some people before the legislation passed that were concerned that you actually wouldn\u2019t see any sixplex or fourplex development on South Hill because the land cost would be so high. And then you would be concentrating the growth in neighborhoods that maybe are lower opportunity, lower access to amenities, these types of things.<\/p>\n<p>But what we have seen is applications have come in across the city and permits are being issued across the city. So there isn\u2019t necessarily a geographic concentration of these missing middle units in terms of what\u2019s being applied for as of right now. Now, that could still change and we could see that trend start to develop, but as of now, at the very least, it\u2019s actually really good that we\u2019re seeing applications coming in on the South Hill too because it shows that really, when you unlock these options across the city, they will be developed across the city.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Let\u2019s get a little bit more into the nitty gritty on some of the policy stuff. So, parking requirements were removed within a half mile transit, up to eight units allowed on a typical lot. Could you unpack that a little bit more? I mean, what\u2019s the geography of that? What are the restrictions like? What are the massing provisions? That was a big issue in some places that have legalized single-family or eliminated single family zoning if they change the use, but they don\u2019t change the massing rule. The listenership of this podcast is keen to hear some of the details here, I think.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, definitely. And that\u2019s kind of where I live, in a good and bad way. One of the things that\u2019s significant is there\u2019s no FAR regulation at all for our \u201csingle-family\u201d \u2014 now they\u2019re called R-1 neighborhoods. There is a minimum density of four units per acre, pretty small, and pretty typical. The minimum lot size is 1,200 square feet, which is pretty small. That kind of works out to 80 feet deep is the minimum lot depth, and then 15 feet is the minimum lot width. We have a maximum total building coverage of 65%, so you can cover 65% of the land area of that lot. With that said, if you\u2019re located within a certain radius of transit or a commercial zone, you actually can go up to 80%, and if you provide a few affordable units, you can go up to 80%.<\/p>\n<p>In terms of setbacks, the front setback is 10 feet. The side setback is 3 feet on narrow lots and 5 feet on lots that are at least 40 feet wide. And then in the rear, it\u2019s 15 feet or zero if you include an ADU in the back. Now, that\u2019s all kind of for detached housing. You also can do zero lot line development row homes that don\u2019t have any side setbacks. It\u2019s just governed under a different provision of our zoning code. But in general, the big things that people keep in mind are: no FAR, 1,200 square foot minimum lot size, and then there\u2019s a 40-foot height limit. So you can go up all the way to 40 feet in a single-family neighborhood, formerly single-family, now R-1 neighborhood, which means you can get up to four stories. Now, people, if they do include parking, it gets a little bit more complicated, but that\u2019s kind of the general rules that we have in place.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I was reading up on it, and one part that I thought was interesting was the maximum footprint for a building. I was wondering if you could share a bit more about that and how that came about or if it\u2019s been an impediment to-<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah. My understanding is that that\u2019s basically getting at one of the things that our planners and our plan commission are trying to balance is trying to maintain some level of outdoor space. In particular for these larger units that may be going in. You want to have some gathering space outside. You want to have, whether it\u2019s trees or even just lawn space for people, that\u2019s the big thing that people are trying to maintain with that maximum building footprint. And also the fact that you may have a larger lot, part of it is trying to get at that issue on a larger lot. But no, to date, I have not heard any concerns from developers about the maximum building footprint. We also have fairly generous rules in terms of lot splitting. What I have seen is some developers, if they have a large lot, may actually just divide the lot and then do one type of middle housing on one lot, and another type on another. Maybe they\u2019ll do the same type of building on both, but that\u2019s another way to kind of get around that maximum building footprint if you have a large lot.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>That\u2019s interesting, so you can subdivide the lot and then do up to the maximum number of units on each lot, huh?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Technically, no maximum unit count. So the only thing governing the unit count is how many you can fit in. You could, in theory, do micro units. I guess in theory, you could do 20, 30 units if you did a really small set-up. But yeah, that\u2019s the idea.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>That\u2019s interesting. The minimum lot size stuff is near and dear to my heart. I\u2019ve done a lot of work on this, and just as a way to stimulate more small lot homes and townhomes. A lot of the reforms, so far, have done a good job of making it easier to build multi-family housing rentals. And that\u2019s good, but you also have a lot of communities that want to stimulate the supply of new owner occupancy opportunities. In many states, condo defect laws and other rules make that a big issue, so it can\u2019t be condos. So you can do townhouses and small lot homes, and I\u2019m curious what kind of action you\u2019ve seen there.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I think that probably one of the biggest things that you\u2019ll see happen in Spokane is townhomes. I think one of the reasons for that is Washington State\u2019s condo law. It\u2019s not exactly the same condo defect law issues as California where it\u2019s much more complicated, but we have those issues. I think we\u2019re going to end up seeing a lot of developers take advantage of these rules to do zero lot line, to do townhomes. I think we will see a significant number of things like stacked flats because we do have several developers that are interested in that, concepts that are kind of\u2026 Frankly, a lot of Seattle developers who wish that they could develop in Seattle are now, maybe not entirely by choice, going over to Spokane to do it.<\/p>\n<p>I think what I\u2019ve seen so far in the permitting system is we\u2019re getting a lot of people taking advantage of these lot-split rules. They will divide the lot and then maybe they\u2019ll do four townhomes on each new lot that they\u2019ve created. So there\u2019s, I think, a significant amount of flexibility that comes with these new rules in terms of the types of products that you can build. It\u2019ll take some time to see what works and what sells, of course, but we have a good amount of precedent in Spokane for people purchasing townhomes. We have a couple of neighborhoods, newer build neighborhoods, where those are more common. I think we\u2019re going to see a significant number of those.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>There\u2019s a pretty substantial industry already going on doing those zero lot line ones in Seattle as well, or at least there was a boom in 2019. So you guys kind of chop up those developers too?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I think that\u2019s part of it. Yeah. I think you\u2019re going to see Seattle, and maybe some of this is where Seattle sees some NIMBY-ism take place as people are freaking out about townhomes. But yeah, I think we are probably on that path-<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Great.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>\u2026 of seeing many more of those in Spokane.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I am curious, is Spokane subject to this similar five-year rents rule on condos? You have to rent them for five years and then they can be available for sale?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s five years specifically, but the same condo laws in general apply in Spokane. I think there have been some movements actually at the state legislature to try to reform some of the condo laws. In Washington, we\u2019ve done a little bit of that, and it\u2019s been particularly for buildings with fewer than 12 units. Honestly, it hasn\u2019t really gone far enough for especially the banks and the financing to work out for the development. The banks need to feel comfortable fundamentally, and they\u2019re not there yet. I think in Seattle, yeah, you do see people building an apartment building and then after five, seven years they will sell. I think we will see some of that in Spokane as well.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that I think was a talking point earlier on in the last legislative session around some of these condo reform rules is if you did it in Spokane, some of the liability concerns in Eastern Washington might be mitigated just by the nature of it being in Eastern Washington. You might not have to worry about earthquakes as much, you might not worry as much about mold. I think there\u2019s potential maybe even to do some sort of bifurcated system. It\u2019s not great for Seattle, but you could potentially do some sort of bifurcated system on both sides of the state.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Let\u2019s talk a little bit more about the output of some of these changes. I mean, just looking at the U.S. Census data, and you have to be careful with it because a lot of times it\u2019s imputed, but when you have these big jumps like you did in 2023 in Spokane, kind of remarkable. A few things jump out at me. First, it\u2019s almost the total inversion of typology from 20 years prior. It\u2019s like the city was almost exclusively building single-family homes for a period. Building a lot of multi-family, but mostly single family homes. Now that\u2019s flipped. It\u2019s mostly multi-family and there\u2019s a pretty robust amount of duplexes and three to fourplexes being built. Not nearly at the scale that I think we would like to see someday, but far more than, according to the census, the building permit survey data, 72 duplexes and 22 units in triplexes and fourplex. That\u2019s a lot by a US standard. I mean, just the overall amount of housing production that\u2019s almost like Sunbelt-tier.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Do you want to provide some more color with that? What types of projects are we seeing? Who\u2019s building them? Are banks rediscovering these missing middle typologies that maybe they\u2019ve forgotten how to finance? There are several different questions there, but I\u2019m fascinated by the answer to every one.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, definitely. I think one of the things that\u2019s interesting about Spokane is that we have a couple of areas that are just outside of city limits where Spokane County, which is in general much more conservative, much more \u201cdeveloper friendly,\u201d but that might not be exactly the right frame to think about them. So right outside of the city, we have a lot of apartment development happening; And a little bit also happening in Spokane Valley, which is a separate jurisdiction; A good amount of apartment development in Liberty Lake; And then a good amount in Airway Heights as well, which is another suburb. I think a lot of what you probably see in that census data is apartment development that\u2019s happening, honestly, probably more outside of the city of Spokane than you might expect, assuming you\u2019re looking at county-level data.<\/p>\n<p>With that said, I think we are seeing a good number of applications coming in for missing middle-type housing. I think one of the earlier updates earlier this year, I think in January, they said they had received roughly 150 applications with a significant number of units as a result of that. I don\u2019t think they gave the unit count at that point, but also saw a significant amount of, I think, smaller apartment developments. Not so much like the 300-unit apartment buildings, the 400-unit apartment buildings, these big 5-over-2s that you see in Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco. Well, maybe not San Francisco. San Jose, Los Angeles. Not so many of those, but you\u2019re seeing a lot of redevelopment of old historic downtown buildings, old brick buildings being converted into offices. We have a good number of office conversions in downtown Spokane. You\u2019re seeing several smaller developments happening down there.<\/p>\n<p>And then we\u2019re also seeing a good amount of interest in that type of development in what I was referencing earlier, our Centers and Corridors. So I think it\u2019s a mix. I think we will see a significant pickup in activity for our missing middle development over the next year. I\u2019m going to be interested in seeing the 2024 numbers in particular, because they\u2019ll have more time for the developers to get a sense of like, oh, what\u2019s possible? What might I be able to develop on these properties that I own? I don\u2019t think they had that ability yet, and we\u2019re starting to see that happen now. But what we have seen is just this supercharge of development of small apartment buildings and redeveloped apartment buildings in the core.<\/p>\n<p>A lot of that is a result of Washington State\u2019s multi-family tax exemption program. We have a program that gives developers a property tax break if they develop multi-family housing. It\u2019s kind of interesting because it actually results in a pseudo-land value tax. But if you develop affordable housing in Spokane, and affordable in Spokane, we define that very, very broadly, up to 115% AMI. You can get a property tax break if you\u2019re building multi-family housing, and a lot of developers are taking advantage of that right now.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Walk me through that a little bit more. Is the state kicking in money to offset that, or how does that not distort fiscal incentives for local governments?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>It does distort fiscal incentives for local government. No. For state government especially, but it\u2019s actually just one of the biggest tools that Washington State has to incentivize housing development. We don\u2019t have in Washington State tax increment financing. So we\u2019re one of the few states in the country that doesn\u2019t have that tool, which of course it\u2019s been abused in some cases, but can be a really powerful tool for investing in infrastructure development. We don\u2019t have incentive tools that other states have for housing. This is the only one we have, and it really is intended for these big multi-family projects. Small and big, but midsize and bigger multi-family projects in the cores of cities. It\u2019s used, I think, very well in cities like Seattle, and Bellevue. They actually have stricter rules than Spokane has around affordability with those units, but Spokane has kept it relatively loose. In part because of, I think, the consensus that we have on our council around just build, baby, build. Any units are good units at this point.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Let\u2019s talk about the state here in a minute, but kind of wrapping up on a reflection on some of the local stuff. What are the lessons learned for cities that might be looking to Spokane as maybe a peer city? What\u2019s worked? Maybe more importantly, what\u2019s not worked?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I think there are probably three things. I think one is it helps to be comfortable having strange bedfellows. I think Spokane, that\u2019s just been one of the unique factors, and we talked about it, that resulted in us being able to pass missing middle legislation. I witnessed the same fights in Seattle that I think are much more political because people just don\u2019t want to be on the same side as someone else on an issue, because they disagree with them on other things. I think that\u2019s fundamentally the wrong place to go on housing. So you need to be comfortable agreeing with, in Spokane, the greater Spokane, like the Chamber of Commerce, you need to agree with them if they\u2019re right on housing. You need to agree with labor organizations if they\u2019re right on housing. You need to just be comfortable having a really big tent. I think that\u2019s important.<\/p>\n<p>One of the other things is the process. If you have a tool that lets you invert your typical process and pass things on an interim basis, and then do all of the rigamarole and process and environmental review and analysis on the back end, take advantage of it. That\u2019s a great tool to kind of dissuade people from blowing up about a particular issue because you can test the waters and show that things aren\u2019t going to change overnight. And then third, and importantly for Spokane, and I haven\u2019t mentioned this, is we have a really strong planning team, a really strong planning department that is comfortable making strong recommendations to the city council. I think we, planning in this country, have maybe been too willing to take a back seat to elected officials. Maybe a little bit too willing to say, \u201cWell, what do you want?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think we need to be comfortable. Planners need to be comfortable making strong recommendations and showing all the data behind it, show all of the thinking behind it. Show that you have thought about this in your professional capacity and are making a recommendation that\u2019s backed up, but make a strong recommendation to your council. Make your strong recommendation to your city manager or city leadership. I think that that\u2019s really, really important. Planners play a significant role in this process and on both sides. They can speed things up and slow things down. I think planners should not be slowing things down. I think that that\u2019s important. Those are my three biggest takeaways, and I hope to god that places like San Francisco and Los Angeles can take some of those things to heart. But if not, we definitely will relish permitting, sorry, more housing units than you all did in the first half of the year.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, we have great planners, at least here in L.A. We definitely cannot do coalitions, and I don\u2019t think we can highlight reform without CEQA, but very good principles and certainly some that folks in some of the cities and states that we work with can take to heart.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I\u2019m curious about takeaways from any relational with other city neighbors. You talked a bit about how there was an apartment building going on along the I-90 corridor leading to Idaho where all those communities are. I\u2019m curious, are they worried you\u2019re going to eat their lunch on housing development? And is your reform spurring more reform over there? I\u2019m curious how that\u2019s playing out with your neighbors.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I think what\u2019s interesting is some of the neighbors are probably on the opposite end of the spectrum. Before Washington State passed its fourplex law, Spokane Valley actually made duplexes illegal. They originally were legal across the entire city, but they made them illegal, so they actually moved backward, which is a little bit unique. I think you probably will see a little bit of that, but I think it\u2019ll be as a result of state action. I think state action in Washington State has been really strong and will result in cities like Liberty Lake, Spokane Valley, and Airway Heights to a certain extent, actually having to go back, and in Spokane Valley\u2019s case, re-legalize some of these missing middle housing types. I think part of the challenge with our region is that once you get outside of Spokane City limits, you end up encountering a much more conservative, and much more socially conservative political environment. I think that that results in, I don\u2019t know, maybe some culture war issues starting to play into the conversation about missing middle.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Fewer \u201cI actually believe in property rights and deregulation\u201d Republicans, and more \u201ckeep your government hands off my single-family zoning\u201d Republicans.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, much more Agenda 21-<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Oh gosh. Yeah.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah. It goes that extreme.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>The closer you get to Idaho.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Exactly. <\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>One quick thing more on Spokane, what\u2019s next? I mean, there\u2019s been a lot of amazing stuff, but of course, there\u2019s still probably great work to do. To your mind, what\u2019s next for zoning reform and housing affordability more broadly in Spokane?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>One of the things that I think I\u2019m excited about is we are about to launch a comprehensive plan update. Washington State requires updates every 10 years, and we are about to launch that process in Spokane. I think we have a lot of potential around inverting our growth paradigm. Historically, we\u2019ve put a lot of attention into these Centers and Corridors. I think we still will probably put some attention into them, but I think we\u2019re going to probably start to think a little bit more about growing in our neighborhoods. So, paying more attention to these missing middle housing types. I am interested in figuring out if we can embed neighborhood commercial at a greater scale. We actually are probably a little bit more permissive on neighborhood commercial than some cities, but I think we can go further.<\/p>\n<p>I personally would like to see something like accessory commercial units, something like a corner store legislation, and would really like to see neighborhood cafes at a greater scale in Spokane. These types of spaces are really popular where we do have them in Spokane, and so I think we could do it really easily. I don\u2019t think we\u2019d have opposition nearly at the level that you see in some cities. That\u2019s one thing I\u2019m personally really excited about.<\/p>\n<p>And then the second piece is we have a lot of work to do around transportation and transit. We\u2019ve gotten rid of parking requirements for housing, but I think we have some potential to do that for commercial. Commercial parking requirements drive me crazy because they result in the most ridiculous outcomes you can imagine. I think about the restaurants during COVID that couldn\u2019t put in outdoor dining areas into their parking lots because their parking had to be there. In some cases, even if they weren\u2019t taking over a parking lot, they were adding space to their restaurant, which increased the amount of parking that they were technically required to have. From my perspective, we just need to completely get rid of commercial parking requirements, and I think that\u2019s something as well that our city council is going to be looking at in the next several months, and hopefully years, we take advantage of that. A lot of work to do, but I think I\u2019m really excited about the potential.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I would love it if you all could lead on accessory commercial units because that\u2019s just such a great\u2026 It\u2019s such a cool, next sort of frontier issue and just key for reducing VMT. Okay, Robyn, do we want to do a quick lightning round?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Let\u2019s do it.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Before we turn to state stuff? Best place to get lunch in Spokane?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Oh god, that\u2019s impossible. Right now, I\u2019m a huge fan of Tacovado, which is this kind of hole-in-the-wall breakfast taco taco place in\u2026 It\u2019s on Northwest Boulevard in Spokane.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>What\u2019s the next city you hope to visit for the first time?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Oh. Oh, that\u2019s so hard. I\u2019m taking a trip to Detroit next week. I\u2019ve been there before, but haven\u2019t spent a ton of time there and haven\u2019t really met people there, so I\u2019m looking forward to Detroit. I have never been to New York City though, so for me, I feel like I need to experience the \u201curban capital\u201d of the United States, so that\u2019s definitely on my list.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>You talked about transit history in Spokane and transit projects. What\u2019s your favorite transit idea for Spokane?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>A pipe dream would be a high-speed rail to Seattle. Slightly less pipe dreamy would be that you could create a really great regional train system in Washington State just by investing a little bit of money. I say little, but it\u2019s still probably on the order of $200 million, but some money in some additional train sets and more operations. If you could have four trains a day from Spokane to Seattle, and a couple of them probably going through Yakima, Tri-Cities, Pasco, you could do something incredible in terms of connecting the state. For me, I go back and forth way too often, so I\u2019m definitely interested in better train service in the-<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Well, I think I broke the lightning round rules, Nolan. I apologize. Back to the actual lightning round.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>It\u2019s no problem at all. Perfectly good answer. Favorite day trip outside of Spokane?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I\u2019m a huge skier, so I spend a ton of time at Schweitzer in North Idaho. It\u2019s North Idaho, but it\u2019s awesome. It\u2019s great skiing.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>In the interest of cross-state unity, could you say something nice about Seattle?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>The silence is deafening.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>It has a growing light rail system.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>You know it does.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Even if it\u2019s not growing fast enough, it has a growing light rail system, and I like that.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>We\u2019ll get to east-west. It\u2019s fine. It\u2019s fine. North-south\u2019s good. It\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Very good. Okay, on the way to wrapping up here, let\u2019s talk about the state. Washington State has been doing a lot of really exciting state-level zoning reform. What\u2019s happened so far, what still needs to happen, and what potentially can they learn from Spokane?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Last calendar year, two legislative sessions ago, Washington State passed a bill, HB 1110, which legalizes fourplexes across the state and sixplexes in certain areas close to transit and kind of our bigger cities. That is a huge step forward, and I think really significant. We\u2019ve also done a lot of good work around making it a little bit easier to build different types of housing. We were one of the first states to pass a single-stair bill, which I am personally very excited about. As someone who spent time in Germany, and lived in Germany for a little bit in a single stair building, that concept I\u2019m just stoked about. We\u2019ve also done some really good stuff around ADUs. We have a really good ADU bill that passed again, a couple of legislative sessions ago. We have a lot of work to do though, to implement those laws.<\/p>\n<p>Seattle\u2019s comp plan update is a really good example of that. They have released a draft right now that really just does not go nearly far enough. And I would argue that in some sense, actually violates the spirit and intent of HB 1110, because while in theory, it legalizes fourplexes and sixplexes across Seattle, in practice because of the zoning code rules that they have, how many are going to be built? Probably very few. We need to do some work, I think, around making sure that the cities are actually implementing what they\u2019ve been required to implement by the state and doing it well and in a way that in practice, results in the types of missing middle housing that we need.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve had a concept and actual legislation in the past legislative session that would put in the form of a builder\u2019s remedy if states\u2019 cities are not implementing their HB 1110 and other state law required rules. I think there\u2019s a lot of complexity around California\u2019s version of a builder\u2019s remedy, so I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s exactly the right solution, but we need to do some work to make sure at the very least, that the cities are implementing the rules that they need to implement. So whether it\u2019s a builder\u2019s remedy or some other form of accountability for cities, I think we need at the state level to do some work to make sure that cities like Seattle or Eastern Washington, Spokane Valley aren\u2019t shirking their responsibility, even while cities like Spokane are trying to take full advantage.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>This is one of the big challenges in California too. It\u2019s easy to pass a lot of good laws, but if local jurisdictions are still basically in the driver\u2019s seat on implementing and they still do not actually want to do what the state\u2019s proposing to do, you\u2019re kind of playing a game of enforcement whack-a-mole, right? That\u2019s kind of where we\u2019re at now in California where it\u2019s like, if a jurisdiction grossly violates the law, the Attorney General and the Housing Accountability Unit, all of that will come in, but a lot of jurisdictions still fly under the radar. I suspect that as in California where the big cities or the cities that want to fight, like the Huntington Beaches, they get into a fight, but so many cities just fly under the radar. I suspect that this is true in Washington as well. Seattle\u2019s probably to a certain extent, going to be under a microscope. It\u2019s showing up a lot in my news feed from all the great EMBs and urbanists there, but it\u2019s like, man. Ideally, you get to a system that doesn\u2019t rely on this, every city\u2019s staying under a microscope.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I think it results in a lot of money for lawyers and the court system. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the right solution to this problem. It can get results, absolutely, but I think there\u2019s probably some work to do to figure out, does there need to be some form of state-level agency that is more in the driver\u2019s seat? We, in Washington State, don\u2019t have a dedicated department of housing, which is something that is being talked about. Our Commerce Department handles a lot of housing-related issues, but they\u2019re kind of everything department. So is there potential to do something a little bit more like HCD, where you have a little bit more authority to come in? Again, I don\u2019t think using the legal system necessarily as a tool is going to result in the right outcomes, at least fast enough. And that\u2019s another big piece of it.<\/p>\n<p>Another thing I\u2019d like to see at the state level, I have to say, and I\u2019m sure this will be something that you all are on board with, but we need fundamental environmental law reform. So our state Environmental Policy Act does some good things and is well-intentioned, but it also does some bad things. Not as bad as in California, but I think it can result in some perverse outcomes and reviews for things that just absolutely should not require reviews. One of the things that Seattle had to review, they had to do a CEQA, a review on turning over the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel from King County Metro to Sound Transit. Just the ownership change needed a CEQA review, which just is insane to me.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>That\u2019s wild. I had thought that Washington State did a better job here in terms of most infill being exempted from that\u2013<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>That, we\u2019ve done a good job of, but-<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Yeah, but I didn\u2019t realize that there were still some games, like famously our Environmental Quality Act, CEQA was used to stop bike lanes, for example. I didn\u2019t realize there were some shenanigans in Washington like that. That\u2019s unfortunate.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>And maybe it\u2019s just we continue to want to do better. Maybe it\u2019s just we have our eyes on like, oh-<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Robyn Leslie:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>It\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>\u2026 perfect. Yeah. It\u2019s not as bad as California. I will say that.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>It\u2019s okay to want to be perfect. You don\u2019t have to apologize for that. In terms of the bigger picture from maybe the states, what\u2019s been the big thing that has worked at the state level? One of the situations we\u2019re in now is Washington, Oregon, California, we\u2019ve kind of been wrestling with this stuff for a while. But of course, this housing affordability issue has exploded into a whole bunch of other states. Montana was probably one of the biggest movers last year. What would be your recommendations as somebody who\u2019s watched what\u2019s happened in Washington for other states that are considering state-level zoning reform for the first time?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>I would say one thing that was really important with HB 1110, which was our fourplex law, is if you need to make compromises to get something passed, take the win. I think HB 1110 was not perfect. I think the original version was sixplexes statewide. There were fewer caveats in terms of the city where it applies and the affordable housing, like in some cases, requirements if you want to do six instead of four, take the win. I think if you can do a duplex law in your state, but you don\u2019t think you can get up to fourplexes, do the duplex law. If you can get really good ADU laws on the books in your state, but you don\u2019t think you can go to the duplex rules, take the win. I think we so often, like I said, want the perfect solution and we should strive for that, absolutely, but we also have to be strategic. I think we have to think a little bit about what is going to be politically acceptable, politically valid, politically viable in your state.<\/p>\n<p>Montana is a great example. They created a bill that is uniquely Montana. Oregon did something similar with their bill. Arizona is something similar. Take into account what is unique to your state if you need to, and if that means having some caveats for now, those could be stripped out later. That\u2019s the other piece. You can make amendments in future years, in future iterations. That\u2019s one of the things that we\u2019ve done in Washington State. HB 1110 was not our first attempt at a missing-middle bill in the state. We had tried doing ADU rules across the state before, and made some changes around the edges. It did improve the situation for people on the margins and developers on the margins of viability. Maybe didn\u2019t go as far as we needed it to, but then we came back in the next session and we passed a better bill.<\/p>\n<p>I think don\u2019t underestimate the power of progress and momentum. I think once you can kind of start the process, it starts to become a little bit more of a role. And people who might\u2019ve been opposed before start to see, oh, not much has changed, or it hasn\u2019t changed as quickly as I maybe would\u2019ve been led to believe. Maybe I don\u2019t need to oppose this next piece of bill, of legislation, as significantly or as strongly. There\u2019s a lot of potential I think, just around taking advantage of the wins that you can. A bill in Arkansas is not going to look the same as a bill in Washington, and that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Cool. Well, Anthony, I think I speak for YIMBYs all across the country when I say thanks for your continued leadership. Along with a lot of great coalition partners in Spokane, I think the progress that you all are making is revealing to a lot of other cities that, hey, we can do these reforms. And this is not just a New York or a Seattle or an L.A. phenomenon. This is something that needs to happen in a range of cities. And to the extent that Spokane, I think, is pushing the boundaries of what\u2019s possible already, it\u2019s incredibly exciting. What\u2019s coming, I\u2019m excited to see you all legalize accessory commercial units-<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Fingers crossed.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Nolan Gray: <\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>\u2026 so that I have a model and we can spread this across the country. But in any case, thanks again, and thanks for joining the Abundance Podcast.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"row\">\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"name\">Anthony Gill:<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"answer\"><p>Absolutely. Thank you so much. Happy to talk to you.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t<\/div>\n<\/div>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"In this episode,\u00a0\u2060M. Nolan Gray\u2060\u00a0chats with\u00a0\u2060Anthony Gill\u2060. Anthony is an economic development professional and the write of\u00a0\u2060Spokane Rising\u2060, an urbanist blog focused on ways make Spokane a better place to live. 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